Prevent viruses developing by regulating mass animal farming

topic posted Sun, May 10, 2009 - 2:00 PM by  Mrs.Purple
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The source of swine flu is most likely an idustrial meat farm in new mexico.

Help revent viruses like swine flu developing by signing the petition. read on:
www.avaaz.org/en/swine_flu_pandemic/
posted by:
Mrs.Purple
Switzerland
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  • I'm sorry, but petitions are nearly worthless in THIS country, what exactly is a petition going to do in some other country? Never mind that Mexico isn't exactly known for being sympathetic to the people's needs.
    • Got a better idea?

      What does it cost you to sign?

      Let me know what else you have planned.. in the meantime: Sign the petition and spread the word!

      Bad food production is bad for everyone..
      • But getting back to this.
        What does it cost me to sign? Almost nothing. True. But it IS an effort, and one that will receive no return.

        When you're talking about less dedicated people than the average person in this tribe, that negative reinforcement adds up quickly. If everything someone does, for a long enough period of time, turns out to be pointless... they stop doing it. This is where those "feed the children" people have it right. They give someone an instant return on their donations (a foster child) and regular returns on commitment (letters). It hardly matters if it's a sham, as long as the folks see some affect made.

        Constant barrages of pointless acts will filter these less dedicated greeners into something else with a positive return. THAT's why I object to this.
        • I signed. I like pigs, for one thing, and think they should be kept in better conditions. I think they are health hazards that have interstate consequences to their practices, and so there is a very good argument to be made for national standards. It is quite true that grandad and his 10 pigs are some of the most egregious violators as far as bad practices, but not on anywhere near the scale of problems attendant to huge corporate farms. Anyway, i'm ok with this not appealing to you, and i'm sure you can see how some of us would think otherwise, and i think it is very helpful for understanding in general if we are respectful of each other's points of view.
          • There are facts and then there are opinions. If you want your opinion to have some validity, then you should first have all the facts. When someone puts up a notice to sign a petition based on false information or misleading information, I will be the first to point out the fallacies in the argument. You don't have to like it, you just have to accept the fact that I happen to know alot about agriculture and the agriculture business. My degree is in agriculture science with emphasis on range and wildlife and minoring in plant and soil science. I spend a lot of time dealing with with pappy's farm and the commercial farms. Most commercial farming and ranching operations do what they are supposed to do. The abusers are the only one's who get media attention. With the small farming and ranching operations (read non-corporate) the norm is to do whatever you want, use as much pesticide or herbicide as you want, refuse to use bio-controls, refuse to inoculate, etc. Those are the ones who pose the most danger, because no one is watching them and forcing them to comply. You should see the bull crap I have to deal with trying to explain simple concepts with decades of research behind it to explain to the small farmer that spraying a pesticide this week is going to cost him a lot of money and do nothing but help create a stronger next generation of bug, whereas, if he waits a week or two, he will kill almost all the bugs and not have to pay the money twice. They still freakin' argue and say "wull, it's the first week of spring, and we always spray now." Sheesh.
  • It is good to sign the petition, and factory farming might well have contributed to this. However, this sort of thing has happened for thousands of years and this will not prevent it, that is way too strongly put. South China, where chickens, pigs and people all live in close contact cheek by jowl by fowl.....so to speak , anyway that has been the source of many new strains. The bird factor can give the virus wings to spread fast and wide.

    Factory animal farming is a huge problem for a lot of reasons though, and this is definitely one of them.
  • Yeah, this is so much BS.

    First off, the problem with pigs is that they carry both the human and the bird versions. They are unique in this way. H1N1 was able to mutate because of this simple fact.

    Second off, in America, this is not a problem with the swine facilities. You can read the research that has been going on about this from the USDA Wildlife Services division, if you were so inclined. In that research, it clearly showed that large, commercial swine facilities were a lot safer and cleaner than smaller ones and had sufficient biohazard safety protocols to keep feral hogs (which are not endemic to this side of the globe by the way) away from the commercial hogs. The smaller facilities, (and Billy Joe Jim Bob's 4-6 piggies in the backyard) are not safe from interaction with those feral hogs. Feral hogs also don't care about national borders, much like the illegals.

    Now, factor in free ranging feral hogs coming up from Mexico (a place well known for it's filth and poor health practices), no health screening at the border for ANYONE coming up from Mexico, illegal or not, and of course the air travel in those lovely planes with recycled air.

    Now also consider that over 10,000 people die from regular influenza in the US alone every year. People are freaking out over a relatively none issue and it's hilarious. Now in Mexico and other countries full of polluted water and poor health practices, you will see this being a huge issue. With unfettered travel in many countries, this virus easily spreads, but all you have to do is wash your hands and follow proper health practices. The young and the old will still be vulnerable, but then, they always are.


    Instead of crying out for a ridiculous petition which most likely has to a connection to Peta in the basement, try pushing for better treatment of Mexican citizen's by their government and pushing for their government to start cleaning their country up, for once.
    • i'm rather hoping the freak out over swine flu will cause mass bacon sales.
      • To Kaytee:

        I dare you to watch these two movies- all the way to the end.

        www.youtube.com/watch

        www.youtube.com/watch

        Wo is brave enough?
        • I was.
          Here's some for you:
          Sharecroppers
          www.youtube.com/watch
          Coal miners
          www.youtube.com/watch
          Modern Slavery
          www.youtube.com/watch
          Child Labor
          www.youtube.com/watch
          Human rights
          www.youtube.com/watch

          The list goes on. Abuses will continue to happen. There may not be a solution. Luckily, you're in a capitalist nation. Every cent you spend is a vot for everything that product stands for. Buy a red Bic lighter and you're saying you like red, you like Butane lighters better than oil lighters, you like childproofing over free click, you prefer to waste plastic, you like photodegraders over biodegraders, you like convenience shopping, etc, etc, etc.

          Don't like animal treatment, don't put your money into it: no meat, dairy, fish, birds, eggs, makeup, leather products, fur, football, baseball, white glue, truffles. Etc.
          • Thank you ted.- the links you shared are interesting, but I think it isnt helpful to spread out all issues at once. one at a time is complex enough..

            I totally agree that we all vote with our wallets, and I am very aware of it.

            The trouble is, supermarkets (and this will account for the bulk of consumer food spending) hardly publicise the conditions animals have to put up with before they are neatly packaged on the shelves..!

            Before consumers can vote with their wallets, the information has to reach the consumers first, so they can make an informed 'vote'. At the moment, the majority of people I know, and I will say I know very well educated and sensible people, are not aware of how bad things are for the animals in food production, even in the more respected food farms.

            The images are gross, the guilt you feel while learning about the miserable lives these animals live, is a big step for people to take.. and most will shut off when the subject is approached.
            The truth is, most people would never let their neighbor treat his one pet that bad.. but because they are unaware of how bad things are in food farms, they will continue to buy these products..

            By appealling to international organisations via a petition the topic at the very least will get some news coverage and might make a few more people face reality.

            You've got to start with informing people.. only then can you expect things to happen..
            • Yes, the information DOES have to reach the consumers. ALL of it. Not all farms treat animals that way. Anyone who's travelled along the 5 between SF and LA has seen that for themselves. And then there's other issues that pluck at the credibility of the Peta claims. For example, 90% of the chickens have broken bones by the time they get to the processing plant. Well, 1) they're already dead, and 2) they're BIRDS... all birds have comparably weak bones to mammals.

              And what I'm getting at is that instead of wasting time signing petitions to get mexico to treat pigs nice, we could be digging into the root source of all these problems and working to fix them. Global overpopulation, increasing voracity in the quest for limited resources, even just the very concept of wealth, all of these are contributing factors to the combined systemic problems. Perhaps a pandemic is EXACTLY what we need.

              The next problem is a crisis of perception. How many Peta members are still driving SUVs? The central banking system requires us to increase debt in order to power growth. So debt is easy and incentive to buy out of our means is high. People in ghettos with $4000 rims on their cars; the wave of SUVs in california, inspiring the rest of the nation; the dismantling of the educational system; these are all necessary to keep the central bank system alive. Now, when you have populations that are 1) kept stupid, 2) socially pressured to spend, and 3) allowed to go into massive debt, they're going to do blindly stupid things. And yes, this is where shock videos like the Peta releases can help. Pretty much the only thing that can get the Christian Children's images out of most people's heads. But until Billy Bob is willing to give up his V8 Mustang for a sMart, and Buffy gives up her lap poodle and Escalade with spinning rims, most things aren't going to start getting better.
          • Hear hear!

            I try to explain this to all the petition signers and creators. I try explaining this to the freaks who try to get laws passed to ban meat consumption. I tell this Peta idiots.

            They just don't get it.

            Can we just ban idiots instead?


            By the way, the commercialization of the meat industry not only created the cities the hippie eco-elitists now tout as being the better alternative, but it also lead to an increase in health for the vast majority of Americans.

            Do abuses happen? Sometimes, yes. They are not commonplace but the exception. I grew up in the country around animals. They were our very means of survival. I moved to the city and saw how people with no connection to animals were callous, ugly, and cruel as a general rule. I blame the cities for the creation of these moronic eco-elitists and anti-meat fanatics. I would like to see them dropped off in the woods and left there. Let them learn to survive without the cities and the socialized programs the liberals created. Let's see how long they go before the learn to kill that first squirrel and eat it.
            • Mass animal farming is a big problem! If you do not think so, i'd like to take you to some rural north carolina communities where the people are up in arms about the invasion of their area by hog farms owned by huge corporations with distant headquarters. Their under regulated effluence has been a major problem, and it is much worse in mexico as i understand it.

              I'm not saying that eating meat is bad! I do not think eating meat is bad! I've personally raised pigs, and butchered them. Steers too. Chickens too. But i would not like a multi thousand head hog farm going in in my neighborhood and i do not think any of you would either. The speed at which disease can travel in the interconnected modern world makes us all in the same neighborhood when it comes to development of new flu strains.

              Orange is exactly right that this is a public health hazard.
              • It isn't under regulated, Wil. It's under enforced. The USDA does not have the power of enforcement. All they can do is fine fine fine fine and make strong suggestions. When it boils down to it, if the company is making money, they can afford the fines. This is how the peanut incident occurred.


                You forget, this is my field. You want to see the effluence cleaned up, then you have to get enforcement. That is a state issue. If the state is turning a blind eye, then you have to make it a media issue. It's very simple.

                And no, commercial farming is not a big problem. Regulation violators are a big problem. The worst offenders I have seen in all my years have always ALWAYS been the old geezer farmers who have been doing things the same way their pappy did for 50 years and will continue to do the wrong things for the next 50 years and no one, especially not the "gubment" gonna tell them no diff'rent.


                There is a huge difference. You want to know what smells worse than a hog farm? A dog food manufacturing plant......during the heat of the day.....in the summer....with a strong breeze....and high humidity. Been there, done that.
                • I have done virology research. Yes, large scale animal farming increases the probability of disease mutation and spread - classic epidemiology. The use of antibiotics (to prevent bacterial infection) is causing antibiotic resistance to human bacterial disease. For plants monocropping enhances susceptibility to pests and plant disease, while reducing genetic diversity, which provides more robust disease defense.

                  One thought, we can focus on the "them" - the producer side, and often be disappointed that "they" don't change. Or we can be delighted that we are making successful individual choices in our own consumption, maybe changing those close to us. That is the locavore, farmer's market movement.

                  Another thought on virus. Despite all our technology and culture, we operate in the biosphere. At any time, a very virulent and easily transmitted virus or bacterial disease could emerge and decimate the human species.

                  Great everyone here is involved in their own way.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    The problem with the farmer's market movement is getting the food to the people. When you sit down and actually do the math, having a whole bunch of local farmer's markets is not any better and sometimes worse for the environment than having the large commercial farms. Plus, if Obama and his puppeteers get their way, the farmer's market will be no more. Just read the bills in Congress as we speak. No exclusions at all for local farmer's markets. That's why I urge people to grow their own in pots if they don't have ground, and get your neighbors together in apartment complexes or trailer parks if you don't own land. Urban co-ops are all the rage now, and you don't need any gas to get them.
                    • I did market gardening for many years, and what you say about it is true wendy. Drawing people to a central area like downtown to get fresh produce has a lot of environmental consequences. It is much better to grow your own or for neighborhoods to work together,

                      I do not think it at all likely that the feds are going to come after farmer's markets in a big way. I've read that legislation and though it could be interpreted as giving feds license to bust farmer's markets, is sure don't think it will be interpreted that way on the ground because of political consequences ( MAJOR) and because i do not see them having a reason to and there is no money for them in it and they gots lots of trouble on their plate already! But we will see what we will see.
  • There is a very strong argument that all of our drug resistant infections were begun and bred in agriculture.

    In agriculture antibiotics are used like steroids to boost metabolism and catabolism and increase bulk.
    There are only so many antibiotics in existence. Al are cultured in biological fermentors. The real difference from one to the other end product is the processing they go through. But they are still founded on a very few strains of molds, bacteria, and fungi.

    In agriculture the opportunity exists to have all manner of infectious diseases exposed constantly to a whole battery of antibiotics breeding diseases that will evolve resistance to those antibiotics.

    Humans misusing antibiotics constitute a sub-microscopic portion in the universe of antibiotic misuse that breeds drug resistant strains.

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